Long time no post I know, but really… it’s your fault. I started this blog to dialogue the tough questions about faith and culture, and while I consistently have anywhere from 20 to 40 readers a day, very few of you are joining the conversation… It’s not a conversation if it’s just me, so jump in there… weigh in on the issue… put your 2 cents in… I’m out of clever phrases, but you get the point. Now on to the new topic…
Alcohol and the Church… mortal enemies, right? Maybe not. When i was in my early twenties I taught a Sunday School class for High School students. I used to get in trouble for responding to questions about “drinking” by saying that Biblically I couldn’t find anything wrong with it, and that I even felt like it was encouraged. So let’s settle the issue once and for all… lemme know what you think about the following issues:
Issue 1: Was the wine in the days of Jesus’ earthly ministry and the early church fermented?
I’ve heard all kinds of arguments on both sides of this question. Here’s my take on it… The Bible refers to many people, on many occasions being “drunk.” In fact, when the Holy Ghost fell on the day of Pentecost, the people on the street thought the people in the upper room were drunk (probably ’cause they were acting strange). If the wine they were drinking wasn’t fermented, and therefore not alcoholic, then how in the world did people get drunk and act crazy?
Some people cite how the fermenting process in that time was much different than it is today, which as far as I know is correct. From what I can tell, the catalyst of the fermenting process is yeast, and yeast actually grows on the skin of grapes. Today’s process involves washing the yeast off of the grapes (for health reasons) and then introducing a “clean” yeast back into the mix. The process in Biblical times simply used the yeast that was on the grape skin, they didn’t wash them first.
Was the wine is Jesus’ day fermented? I can’t see how anyone could believe otherwise.
Issue 2: Did Jesus ever drink himself?
Uhhhhmmm… yeah. He even made a toast at the last supper and promised never to drink wine again until he drank it new with his disciples in his coming Kingdom. (A toast we honor when we take part in communion celebrations at Emmaus.) The implication is, if he’s not going to drink wine again until… that he’s been drinking wine in the past.
Issue 3: Scripture
I can clearly see and agree that scripture warns against “drunkenness,” or being drunk, but it seems to me that at the same time absolutely legitimizes (and in some cases encourages) the consumption of wine. Based on quite a bit of study, here’s what I believe as of this writing:
1 – Drunkenness as a condition is condemned.
2 – The vast majority of scripture give no moral advice one way or the other.
3 – Moderate consumption is not condemned, except within the context of certain persons and certain times.
That should get the conversation started, I’m sure more issue’s will surface as we dialogue. Here’s all I ask, make sure your comments are well-thought-out and intelligent. Don’t say, “Well my Bible says…” Please list references when referencing scripture or other sources. Start your comment by writing the Issue number so we all know which specific issue you’re addressing. Remember, we are dialoguing about an issue that has split the church down the middle for a very long time, there are intelligent people on both sides of the issue and WE WILL NOT ARGUE… period.
All that said, let the unfiltered dialogue begin!
September 4, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Well, my Bible says that drinking alochol is of the devil! See Hezekiah 2:14.
Okay, so for my real opinion on this issue: I can personally say that alochol has effected my life in a drastic way. My father has struggled (I don’t know how much struggling he does on his part) with alcoholism for all of my life. The baggage that comes along with that included several DUI’s, probably 15+ years spent in jail, and 3+ years spent in rehab centers (which none have been successful). I know this is something that you and I have in common.
I guess blaming the alcohol is like blaming a gun for a crime, I’ve never seen the alcohol force itself down someone’s throat. I’m just wondering, is there anything, ever in the history of mankind, good that has come from the consumption of alcohol? (besides the white man buying the island of Manhattan from Indians for $18 after having them sip on some of grandpa’s old cough medicine.) A lot of people claim to be social drinkers, whatever that means, but if you’re social life revolves around drinking alcoholic beverages with friends, what kind of social life is that? I’ve learned you can have as much fun drinking Tang as you could drinking something alcoholic.
So while the Bible doesn’t outright condemn the evils of alcohol, the do exist. I guess it wasn’t an issue in biblical days for people to get on their chariots, their judgment impaired by alcohol, and kill other people because of it. If nothing good comes of alcohol and, much like pornography, gambling, affairs, etc., it possesses the power not only to hurt or destroy you, but also those around, then I don’t mind followers of Christ taking a stand against it.
Just the ramblings of a grape juice for communion drinker,
w
September 4, 2007 at 12:39 pm
I agree with most of what you said… the good that comes out of it, for me at least, is that I enjoy it… much like I enjoy food. We need food to survive, but we (Americans at least) eat foods we enjoy simply for the “enjoyment” value of them.
I agree that some people shouldn’t drink; the abuse of alcohol has ruined my real dad’s life… along with the abuse of some illegal substances. However, I enjoy an occasional drink with a meal or with friends, and don’t abuse alcohol at all. I just think if you’re going to draw lines like that and say “These people can’t drink and not get drunk so nobody can drink,” you’ll be drawing lines for a lot of “unnecessary” but enjoyable things we do everyday.
Do you believe Jesus drank? fermented wine?
September 4, 2007 at 1:01 pm
I do. I’ve never done an in depth study on which greek words are used when it refers to Jesus and wine, but I would venture a guess to say the wine he drank was fermented.
I’m not trying to rob any one of their right to drink alcohol, but I think its better off avoided. There are things in alcohol that are obviously addictive. I don’t know how many drinks it takes for it to become addicting. I honestly believe that voluntarily subjecting yourself to something that may one day take complete control over your life is not a good decision for a disciple of Christ. I suppose I feel the same way towards smoking, although the physical damage caused by smoking is more documented and probably more severe then the damage alcohol causes internally. I understand the argument concerning eating things you enjoy, and drinking things you enjoy. I enjoy steak, however, I eventually get tired of eating steak. The same is not so with alcohol, maybe its due to the variety.
So in your opinion, is all alcoholic beverages okay? Like if someone prefers whiskey, or vodka, which are considered strong drinks; are they okay? Proverbs does say that wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. So, what I’d be curious to know is that where do you draw the line. Do you look at the percentage of alcohol content? Or does it vary on ones individual ability to handle what they drink?
September 4, 2007 at 1:43 pm
In my opinion, all alcoholic beverages are okay within moderation… moderation being the key word there. I’ve been drinking regularly now for over a year, when I say regularly I mean usually not more than once a week, if that. I can honestly say I’m not addicted to the stuff. I really can take it or leave it, in fact I went for 30 days without drinking anything alcoholic a few months ago, just to prove to myself that I wasn’t addicted and I barely thought about it.
I guess my stance on the verse from Proverbs is that Proverbs and other proverbial literature are not absolutes. They are not cohesive and complete arguments. So I don’t think these passages can be read as absolute condemnations of consuming alcohol. Take Proverbs 26:4-5 “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.” So which is it? Do I answer a fool and become a fool, or not answer a fool and let him continue to be a fool? I also think Solomon may have been referring to people who drink too much… see chapter 23, verses 29 through the end of the chapter.
I try to study the Bible “precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.” (Isaiah 28:10) Which means that I take all of the instances I can find in scripture and weigh them against each other to find an overwhelming truth. We do the same with salvation; I can find verses that say “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)
That verse must be weighed against other verses, like Acts 2:38, which declares that we must “repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus.” In my opinion, neither verse is wrong… In order to fulfill Acts 2:38, we also have to confess and believe. Line upon line, precept upon precept.
And, behind it all… I just can’t get around the fact that Jesus probably drank. And that evidentially we will all drink wine with him at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
September 4, 2007 at 3:51 pm
I’ll take the non-alcoholic watered down version then, please. =) Unless of course they’re serving some Cheerwine up there. Remember that drink? Good stuff.
September 5, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Cheerwine… I haven’t thought about that stuff in a hundred years… good stuff.
My question is, how does someone get around the fact that Jesus most likely drank? Even if he didn’t, he did perform a miracle that, if performed today, would make most Christians question his “Christianity.” He made 180 gallons of wine and gave it to people who were already a little more than half lit. In addition to that the Bible says that by doing this he reveals his glory and wins his disciples faith.
Why do people spend so much time trying to prove the wine Jesus made wasn’t alcoholic? It’s like they don’t want Jesus to be who he really was. Like they want to cover up what he did.
September 5, 2007 at 1:42 pm
One of the older arguments for not drinking is that fresh water was at a premium during “Bible Times”. So, they would have to boil or just cook with water. In other words, the only thing they had to drink that was safe, was wine. Even, the wells they dug weren’t always sanitary. If I’m going to drink like Jesus, then I’m staying with wine. If it was good enough for Him….
I don’t know what He thinks about mixed drinks, no one does. I just prefer to err on the side of caution. Whatever is not of faith is sin. I don’t condemn anyone else for drinking stuff other than wine. I do know that a really wise guy said “strong drink is a mocker” and encouraged his sons to avoid it.
They’re probably a little further along in their spiritual walk than I am. Drinking doesn’t quench my thirst, it creates it. I’ll stick to water, no ice, and lime with the occasional glass of wine.
September 5, 2007 at 2:25 pm
In all these passages that warn us about alcohol, I think that the key is that Scripture teaches not to “be deceived” by alcohol, just as we shouldn’t be deceived by anything that can be abused. The warnings about alcohol are important because of the potential that exists for evil. What we must realize is that the same potential exists for the way I use many other things, including my very body.
We could hide out in our Contemporary Christian Homes and avoid every dangerous thing that exists, hoping to stay “pure” in a defiled world, but Jesus calls us OUT. Be in the world, but don’t think like the world by being deceived into thinking that alcohol, television, sex, or cigars are the savior OR the enemy.
Sin comes by my abuse of any of these things. Here’s an excellent quote on the topic from Dan Scott, one of the pastors at Christ Church in Nashville:
“The Lord wants us to learn how to be responsible with dangerous things. Everything in life that is connected to the well-springs of life is a dangerous thing… Wine, food, sex, firearms, money: those are all dangerous things.”
September 5, 2007 at 3:02 pm
I would guess that what we refer to as “mixed drinks” the Bible refers to as “strong drink,” since it makes a distinction between the two. And because Isaiah 5:22 talks about “mingling strong drink.” The word for “mingle” is “macak” in Hebrew and it means “to mix.”
For me, mixed drinks quench my thirst as much as a Dr. Pepper or a glass of sweet tea… and I drink them for the same reason I drink Dr. Pepper or sweet tea instead of water or coffee… I simply enjoy the taste. For me it’s not about quenching my thirst since I’m blessed enough to live in a place where going thirsty isn’t an issue; I like sweet tea, I like Dr. Pepper, I like Margarita’s, and I like Sangria.
September 5, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Like Jason, I agree that it can be dangerous, so, as with all things in this life it must be enjoyed with moderation.
I just received an email from someone who’s too scared to post, while I should just post the email and their name here… I won’t… with this warning: If you’ve got something to say, say it loud and say it proud!
They sent me a few references to scriptures to prove that wine and strong drink should be avoided… however, one of these verses (Numbers 6:3) also warns against eating moist grapes, and dried grapes. Why take up the banner of wine and liquor and leave out the rest of the verse? Why not carry the “gospel” to all of the raisin lovers out there? Raisins are sin too, right?
Lol…
September 7, 2007 at 11:37 am
Maybe thats why I’ve always hated raisins. I still think I’ll take a stand against it. Subjecting yourself to something that is addictive, no matter what it is, is like playing Russian Roulette. As a youth pastor, I just can’t even imagine telling the kids I’m working with that alcohol is okay to be consumed, especially knowing that for some it may lead to a life long struggle with addiction. Its not even worth the risk, so why do it?
September 7, 2007 at 12:47 pm
I agree that it some cases people become addicted. And teenagers shouldn’t be drinking because it’s against the law. But I think what a lot of Christians who don’t drink forget, is that there are millions of people, many of them Christians, that do drink wine and/or other alcoholic beverages, and those people do so responsibly… they’re not addicted, they’re not drunks.
Do you teach the kids you lead (and, for the record, I think you’re doing a fabulous job) about how food can be dangerous? About how overindulging in food is a sin? About how eating the wrong foods (the junk we all love so much) is detrimental to their bodies, to their “temple?” That food should be enjoyed in moderation because too much is dangerous? That’s the way I would teach them about alcohol.
I’m not asking you to change what you believe about “the evils of alcohol,” I’m just trying to figure out how people who are very similar in other areas, can differ so greatly on this issue.
I’m trying to understand how you arrived at your conclusions, and I guess my hang up is still that Jesus most likely drank. And, like I said earlier… even if he didn’t, he did make 180 gallons of wine and give it to people who were already more than half drunk. What would you say to a teenager who asks you about Jesus drinking wine at the last supper or turning water into wine and giving it to people who had already been drinking for a while?
September 7, 2007 at 3:01 pm
What else was he going to do? Fill the waterpots with water and then have them serve it as ‘purified’ water? It would’ve been really cool if he turned it into kool-aid, but that would have been really Jim Jones like. He chose wine because thats what they served at weddings. I suppose if he lived in today’s society, he’d probably turn it into frozen Hawaiin punch, orange juice, and 7-Up all mixed in those big pots.
My argument isn’t based on what alcohol does to you physically, its more what you’re subjecting yourself to spiritually and mentally. So if Jesus was around today, you think he’d be a social drinker? There are a lot of things Jesus did in his day that was relevant only to the time he was living in. I think wine drinking may have been one of them.
September 7, 2007 at 3:56 pm
I see what you’re saying… but I disagree.
There is clear indication that there were people who never drank wine, Jesus wasn’t one of them but none-the-less. And there were other beverages to consume besides wine or water… they drank grape juice, and milk (probably not together, lol)… and they also drank other juices like pomegranate, and citrus juices. They also steeped dates in water to make a sweet drink, and also drank tea.
Jesus knew the dangers of overindulgence, and chose to drink anyway, even with many other non-alcoholic beverages available to him. I don’t think it falls into the category of “custom of the time,” like greeting your brother with a kiss does.
The “custom” in the Greek culture at the time included things like homosexual relationships with young boys (where we get the term mentor), and wild sex parties (orgies)… you don’t see Jesus doing something that is wrong just because it’s part of the culture or is relevant to the time.
I thought this was interesting, I ran across it last night while studying for my message this Sunday, “The Son of Man came, eating and drinking, and people said, ‘Look at him! He eats too much and drinks too much wine, and he is a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved to be right by what it does.” (Matthew 11:19)
So Jesus evidently did drink, and at least some people thought he drank too much… I guess I’m in good company, lol…
September 7, 2007 at 3:56 pm
And… yes, I think that Jesus would be a “social drinker” if he were walking around in the flesh today.
September 8, 2007 at 2:33 pm
I too think that Jesus would be a social drinker today. I also believe he would be an energy-saving, tree hugger who marches on the front lines of anti-war/peace rallies, but that’s another blog!
I grew up watching conservative christian grandparents enjoy a glass of homemade (fermented) wine with their dinner. I also lived in a home where drugs and alcohol abuse abounded. Seeing both examples shows me that alcohol is not the problem. It can become a problem without wisdom and moderation.
Robert and I had this conversation with our pastor a few months ago. He asked what the benefit is of social drinking. We gave the answer of eating sweets and drinking coffee. Coffee is a highly addictive, mood-altering drink. One cup for me and I am off the wall jittery. I have a co-worker who cannot go a day without it; he suffers from fatigue and headaches if he doesn’t have a cup…addiction!!! But no one will every say that he is sinning or doing something wrong by having his “fix” every morning. I understand that driving a vehicle on a caffeine high isn’t considered dangerous, but neither is having a couple of drinks on a Friday night with your friends. Moderation is the key.
Great topic!
September 8, 2007 at 5:01 pm
so i am going to chime in right behind cheyenne. i don’t really know what else to add to it, but i do agree that it is not the alcohol, it is the person who cannot control their consumption. if it is an issue that you cannot handle, then i would say that alcohol is something you need to stay away from. but just because it is dangerous for some, and that many people abuse alcohol, it is not outright sinful.
interesting verse that Matthew 11:19…
in response to the comment of teaching moderation to youth:
i wonder (disclaimer: thinking out loud) if because we are afraid to address moderation (and not just in the discussion of alcohol) with youth we often set them up for major binges into secularism. if we would approach life from a more spiritual offenseive (all things are spiritual – rob bell and others)) rather than defensive standpoint, i think we could factor moderation into how people live daily, and not require forced abstention. then, after being told who to be for so long, the moment that they begin to seek who they are, there might be a good chance that a binge on all things forbidden will shortly follow.
personal story…i was told that alcohol, (and so many other things) were bad and that i was supposed to stay away from them. there was never any explanation as to why there is a “legal age” for drinking, or what the ramifications to being drunk were…i was just told it was bad. so therefore when i hit college, joined a fraternity and was in situations where alcohol was present…of course i drank. at that point it was because i knew i wasn’t supposed to do it, and therefore i began to abuse it.
i feel that if the issue of alcohol is approached from an honest standpoint: that alcohol (when abused) is wrong, you don’t need to drink before 21 because of responsibility issues (and even some 21+ people are obviously not responsible), or even you are still developing physically…but don’t just push it off as something bad. i think then you would see teenagers who understand the dangers of alcohol and choose to be wise when they are around it
September 9, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Cheyenne… Great observation about the coffee. I was just talking with someone about that the other day. The “inconsistencies” of “Chrisitianity” are staggerring sometimes, huh?
Thanks for joining the conversation!
September 9, 2007 at 9:05 pm
Robert… Matthew 11:19… too funny, huh? People said Jesus drank too much!
September 11, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Great conversation and comments… One personal story here, too:
My dad, who is a Christian and was at the time, pulled out a can of beer when I was a teenager and explained the whole thing to me. “This stuff is addictive if you start drinking too much of it… You will probably be offered this at parties… be careful… don’t drink till you are 21, and even then, you need to know that this isn’t a glass of tea, so handle it with care.”
Then he gave me a sip. I hated it, and didn’t have another drink until I was about 26. I now have a glass of wine with meals a few times a week, and about once a month I go sit with a friend or two for a couple of beers and a cigar.
I’m grateful that my dad didn’t go around the alcohol issue, but addressed it head-on with moderation and caution. That’s what I call youth ministry!!
(No crack on Willie, though. I understand the pressure he is probably under if he is at the typical church).
September 13, 2007 at 12:26 pm
I appreciate the open dialogue. Just to respond to Jason, thanks for understanding the plight I find myself in as a youth pastor at a ‘typical’ church. Sadly, our church is typical and hopefully I can one day change that, but with that being said just because the church I’m working at doesn’t agree with the consumption of alochol on any level, save communion (which I’ve always found a little hypocritical), I still set the standard for myself to stay away from alcohol and I take that stance with the youth too. To me its just not worth the risk.
Unfortunately, a majority of the youth I’ve worked has had their lives affected by family members (mostly fathers) that were alcoholics and turned out to be dead beats as well. I think they can look at their own personal lives to find motivation to say this is something best avoided; which is the stance I encourage them to take as well. I never want them to find themselves in rehab one day because they couldn’t control their urges and say, “My youth pastor said that a drink every now and then was fine as long as it was moderate.” While I know the blame wouldn’t be on me, I would still feel somewhat responsible.
This is great dialogue though and I appreciate you guys being up front.
September 17, 2007 at 1:30 pm
As the former youth leader’s wife at the same church where Willie is now Youth Pastor, I can say that I was never satisfied with the typical church answer that I was given growing up there, and then turned around and gave as one of the youth leader’s that we should avoid alcohol simply because we should ‘avoid the very appearance of evil.’ I actually wrote my own blog about this a few weeks ago.
Having said that, I can also say that that the only alcohol I have ever consumed in my life has been either at communion (it wasn’t the good stuff either,believe ME!…if all wine tasted like that Mogan David junk..BLECH…WHY would anyone WANT to drink????)…or in that sinful cough syrup. Haha.
I agree that I can not see any biblical reason not to take an occasional drink. I do believe that Jesus drank wine. I don’t think someone who drinks the occasional glass is going to go to Hell because of it.
But I totally agree with Willie about its highly addictive nature. I have seen my younger brother’s life pretty much destroyed by alcohol at this point, though it has been prophesied again and again that God is going to to use him in ministry. I have faith that God will one day bring my brother out of his addiction and I will see the promise fulfilled in his life.
But forever remaining in his life will be the seductive highs and lies of the alcoholic haze. He will have to fight that battle every day for the rest of his life, every time he is going through a trial the call will be there to forget about it all through alcohol.
I also was in an accident involving a drunk driver when my mom was pregnant with my youngest sister. When you are 10, and your mom has lost other babies, something like that is pretty scary. It leaves a pretty big imprint on your mind about the dangers of alcohol. Thankfully, God was watching out for us that night. But I never forgot how scared I was sitting there by the side of the road while the ambulance crew quickly checked out my mom to make sure everything was ok with her and baby.
In my mind, the adversary will look for anything he can use to bring us down…whether it be alcohol, gluttony, what we watch, what we read, whatever…It doesn’t HAVE to be a sin for it to BECOME a sin and take ahold of our lives.
So, that, in a somewhat drawn out manner, is my opinion.
Choose you this day what YOU will drink..as for me and my house, we’ll stick with the Diet Coke. With the occasional Vanilla Diet Coke thrown in. LOL
September 17, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Kathy,
Thanks for weighing in on the issue. I don’t have a problem in the world with someone taking a stand and saying, “Here’s what someone who was addicted to alcohol did to me or to my family.” No problem with saying, “Here’s the pain and heartbreak that my family member or friend has experienced because of an addiction to alcohol.”
To me though, that’s no different than saying, “Here’s how someone who abused prescription drugs hurt their family and friends,” or “Here’s how my friend ruined their life by abusing prescription drugs.”
I know people who have absolutely ruined their life by abusing prescription drugs, however; to me that doesn’t mean that no one should be able to use those particular prescription drugs… or that those prescription drugs, when used correctly are fine.
Yes, people abuse alcohol, but I feel like many people who (understandably) argue against alcohol based on a handful of people they know and love and the abuse that’s involved there sometimes forget that there are millions of people who drink responsibly and who are not addicted.
I know probably over a hundred people personally who drink alcohol but who are absolutely not addicted to it. I know a few young people who abuse alcohol, but aren’t addicted to it (there is a difference). I only know one person personally who abuses alcohol because they are addicted to it, and they abuse both prescription and illegal drugs as well.
Even if someone knows several people who are alcoholics, for every one person who is an alcoholic, there are hundreds (maybe thousands) of people out there who aren’t. A recent Gallup poll says that between 65% and 72% of American adults drink. That means that close to (or over) two-thirds of the people in this country drink alcohol, are they all alcoholics? Of course not.
Also, Alcoholics Anonymous teaches, “Alcohol no more causes alcoholism than sugar causes diabetes.” If alcohol caused alcoholism then all drinkers would be alcoholics. AA also teaches that people are born alcoholic and are not caused to be alcoholics by alcohol or anything in their experience. They argue that many people are born and die alcoholic without ever having had a sip of alcohol.
Just some other things to consider I guess… And, it is always refreshing to hear a fellow follower of Jesus admit that they think he most likely drank alcohol.
What’s your blog? I’ll check out what you had to say a few weeks ago about all of this.
September 17, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Yeah, the reasons I presented were why I, personally, have no desire to drink, even if Jesus personally came down and turned my diet coke into wine, not why I think everyone and their brother shouldn’t. My personal convictions about it all are just that, personal…not something I push off on others…though I do expect my kids to obey me about it. Ha!
But God help the ones who do have too much and if they injure me or mine, all right? That’ll bring out the momma bear in me.
Trust me…not something you want to see happen.
You can get to my blog from Willie’s…It’s the ‘KayBee’s Kitchen’ Link…I will warn you though, that I, too, have music on my blog! LOL (You can click on the August 22nd link rather than scrolling through all the stuff to find the “Controversial Question” post)
September 17, 2007 at 5:35 pm
You people and your blasted music!!!
I appreciate that you distinguish between “personal convictions” and “rules we all must live by.” A lot of “Christians” can’t or won’t make that distinction. Thanks again for weighing in on the issue, great perspective!